Full Transcript

Dr. Venable: Welcome to the Veterinary Cancer Pioneers podcast, the show where we delve into groundbreaking work of veterinary professionals who are dedicated to advancing the field of veterinary oncology. I'm your host, Dr. Rachel Venable, and I'm thrilled to embark on this journey with you. 

Hello, and welcome to the Veterinary Cancer Pioneer podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Rachel Venable, and I am so excited to introduce our guest today, Dr. Carolyn Henry. Dr. Henry was the first woman to be the Dean of the College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Missouri, and she also has a joint appointment as faculty member in the School of Medicine. She earned her DVM at Auburn University and practiced small animal and emergency medicine before returning to Auburn to complete an oncology residency and master's. She was then appointed as faculty at Washington State University as an assistant professor, and then in '97, she and her late husband, Dr. Tyler, joined the faculty at the University of Missouri. Dr. Henry is the past president of the Veterinary Cancer Society and the ACVM Specialty of Oncology. Dr. Henry has served as the Mizzou Advantage One Health Facilitator, tasked with facilitating multidisciplinary opportunities between human and veterinary health -related disciplines and other campus programs since it started in 2010. She was named Associate Director of Research for the Ellis Fischel Cancer Center and Associate Dean for Research and Graduate Studies at the College of Veterinary Medicine in 2013. In 2017, Dr. Henry was named Interim Dean of the College of Veterinary Medicine and began her official term as the permanent dean in February of 2018. She continues to promote One Health activities locally, nationally, and internationally. Her research interests include canine bladder, bone, and mammary cancer, comparative oncology and epidemiology, demiology and the beneficial effects of the human animal bond.

So without further ado, please join me in extending a warm welcome to Dr. Henry. And I have to say, you know, when I think of a cancer pioneer in our field, your name, your image comes to the forefront of my mind, I feel like you've been so instrumental in our discipline and how our specialty has evolved over time. So I am so honored that you agreed to be a guest today.

Dr. Henry: Oh, it's my pleasure. It's been a fun journey. And I'm excited to talk about it with you. 

Dr. Venable: Oh, well, thank you. And we do always like to learn more about people's journey.

 And you know, I really interested, you know, back when you decided to do oncology, what got you interested in that? Because it was pretty new at the time, right? What made you want to go into veterinary oncology?

Dr. Henry: Yeah, it's interesting. So I had had somewhat of an exposure to oncology in vet school, but it wasn't a rotation, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't what it is today. And I went into a small animal practice, and just a general practice. And what I found is that the cases that interested me the most ended up being oncology cases. And oftentimes, it was a case that would present with a perineoplastic syndrome, so not an obvious lump or bump. And I've always liked solving mysteries. And so I found that very rewarding to be able to, you know, track it back to what the actual cause was. And in practice, where I was at the time, there wasn't a lot of interest in pursuing diagnoses of cancer, and certainly not pursuing therapy. So I went into, you know, residency, not necessarily thinking I would go into academic medicine, but certainly specialty medicine and a specialty practice. And my career is, as we'll discuss, sort of took a lot of different paths from there, but it's all been very, very rewarding. 

Dr. Venable: Oh, that's really interesting. I love how you like the mystery, you didn't like the obvious bump, you know, you wanted it more complicated. Can you tell us a little bit more about your journey? I mean, yes, you've had quite a career from starting in, you know, in Auburn down in the south and then becoming, you know, all the way up to the Dean of the Vet School of Missouri. So, you know, can you share some of those highlights and just some of the pivotal moments you think that brought you to where you are?

Dr. Henry: Sure. And I'll start out by saying, you know, usually when you go on a journey, you've got a destination in mind. And none of this was the destination that I had in mind. But, you know, sometimes your GPS as you're traveling, you get into an area where there's no cell coverage and you kind of got to wing it. And that's kind of how things progressed for me. So, you know, as I said, when I was in Vet School, I certainly didn't see myself doing anything other than general practice. And going back into an academic career was not on my radar for sure. When I got back into oncology, it was a perfect fit from the start. It kept me interested. At the time, I've shared the story probably with you and others before that it wasn't a residency at Auburn, and they weren't intending to have one. But I really wanted to go, I wanted to stay in that area at the time for personal reasons. And so I offered to do an unpaid residency if they would allow me to moonlight at two different emergency clinics. So that's how that started. So it was the worst-paying job I've ever had in my life, including, you know, the job I had when I was 12 years old, cleaning out canals. But it was also the most fun I think I've ever had. And it was so rewarding. And I just knew I was where I was supposed to be at that time. Went from making no money to getting offered a position on faculty. And that was, I think, think I made $55,000 my first year on faculty which was quite a step up. And, and in that role at Washington State they didn't have oncology there to start with either. And I was working through internal medicine. And so, you know, being able to, to try to start something new was exciting. When we moved to the University of Missouri, same story. We had an internist that was doing oncology but we didn't have a separate service per se. And so I think I've always enjoyed a challenge and something that that feels like it's going to have an impact. And that was the case in oncology, you know, it just naturally progressed very nicely at the University of Missouri. And being in an academic setting, I got really the best of many worlds. I'm kind of a short attention span person. And I liked the idea of you're on clinics for a certain amount of time and then you're doing research for a certain amount of time and you're teaching both in the clinic and in coursework. And so that variety has always kept it very interesting for me. And, you know, further that with comparative oncology and the linkages that we have with the med school, really seeing how what we do in veterinary oncology can have been able to see how it has a real life impact. And that has has kept me interested in it for, you know, 30 plus years. As far as going into administration that I'm still shocked to this day that I ended up going down that route but it was, it was a series of kind of falling into positions. A lot of times, through my, my history I've been asked to do something on an interim basis. And that sounds like, okay, that's not permanent. I can try it. And if I don't like it, I don't have to keep doing it. But in almost every instance, it turned into then a permanent position, if you will. And that included the deanship. I really was interested in becoming an administrator to have an impact that was larger than what I could do as an oncologist seeing cases in the clinic. That has a very big impact, certainly in the lives of the pet owner and the animals that we treat. But I think as a dean, you have an opportunity to have an impact on the profession as a whole. And as I get older, that becomes more important to me that I, that I have a bigger impact on the overall profession. So again, I was, you know, I got asked to be interim dean that that sounded okay for a short term and then that turned into becoming a dean, which I was for six years and no regrets there either.

Dr. Venable: Well, that's a fascinating story. I love how, through your story, you knew what you liked. And even if there wasn't a road, you just kind of made one, right? Like, there wasn't really a residency, but you made one and made the most of it. And then even at the two vet schools, there wasn't oncology, but you figured it out. So I think that's amazing. I think that's an important message for the, you know, the next generation and just everyone in general, right? Sometimes if you find something you really like and you're passionate about, just you can figure out a way. Would you say that's kind of how you've been?

Dr. Henry: Yeah, I mean, it's you got to be able to take a leap of faith. And that's something that is an acquired taste for people. But once you try it, it's pretty darn fun. And that, you know, nothing really cool happens in your life without change, and sometimes difficult change. But, you know, in each of those changes is an opportunity for growth. And that's what we're here for.

Dr. Venable: Yeah, that's that. I think that's very true and great, right? Like change, you know, we're not always a huge fan of it, but you're right. If you don't make any changes, you're not going to continue to grow. And I think that's something people need to hear too, because I think too often you kind of get stuck in a rut, right? And you just think, well, there's not really anything else I can do. But sometimes you just need to change it up. You need to, like you said, take that leap of faith. And, you know, maybe, maybe like you did too, maybe do something on the interim, which doesn't always end up being so like interim, right? 

Dr. Henry: Yep, exactly. 

Dr. Venable: And, you know, going through kind of, you know, creating your own path, if you will, and certainly developing oncology programs and things, did you notice, you know, a lot of times people talk about the the gender barrier, I know that met, it's kind of switched over the years. Now it's mostly female dominated. But when you were there, was it more male? And did you notice what was that really? Did you notice anything wise in oncology? Or did you not really notice any discrepancy or, or, you know, anything as far as being a woman in the field?

Dr. Henry: I don't think I noticed it as much in oncology, because it was a relatively new specialty. And I think, you know, 1990s were that crossover occurred in terms of men versus women in the veterinary profession. So I don't think it's affected our specialty as much as it has the profession as a whole. And, you know, I experienced some of that in school, but we we had plenty of women in my class even back then. But I noticed it in practice, certainly the first practice I went into had been owned by a man who'd been there for 25 years. So he was quite a bit older than me, and they were used to seeing Doc, and you know, when I came out, they thought I was, you know, a high school student that was volunteering or something, I looked so different from what they were used to, so, you know, it took being able to gain people's confidence, and you know, the secret to that is, first of all, you got to have a sense of humor to get through it, which I've always tried to maintain, and I think the other thing for me is I've always had that imposter syndrome that we talk about, and so I had to overcome that in myself so that I could gain the trust of the clients that were coming to the clinic, and that's been a lifelong process for me and something I'm still continuing, but it's important to recognize and to do what you can to fight that. 

Dr. Venable: You know, in some ways, that's actually encouraging, because I feel like someone like you who you've done so many things, you know, I wouldn't even guess you would ever have that imposter syndrome, right, because so many of us, we all deal with that and feel like, "Oh, I shouldn't really be here. I can't really do this," but that's really encouraging to know that you struggled with that, but yet you've still accomplished so many great things. 

Dr. Henry: Oh, I'm the poster child for it, trust me. 

Dr. Venable: Oh, why? You know, speaking of, like you said, even in the 90s, how things were changing with the, you know, female to male ratio and vet med, how have you seen just the vet med evolving over time, just, you know, the role of vets, you know, even in your career, have you seen that changed? And even at the vet schools, what have you noticed or, you know, have really felt as far as the change, how our profession has evolved over time?


Dr. Henry: I think probably the biggest difference now has just been the information explosion that occurs. You know, when I was going through vet school, it was a lot of honestly rote memorization. You know, I think my vet library at home had 10 books and that would cover it. And everything you needed to know is in those 10 books. And that's crazy to think of today. Access to information is so fast now. You know, in some ways it's good, some ways it's bad. I kind of, I miss the investigative process that goes into getting information. You know, all you got to do is ask Siri and she's going to have an answer for you pronto. And there's no going to the card catalog and looking for a book that's out on loan and you've got to wait for it. You know, everything is accessible. But the downside of that for our students is, you know, how can you master all that information? And so the way that we teach has changed in that we're more about teaching students how to get good information and how to interpret information as to whether it is reliable or not.

So that's a big part of it. And how to become a lifelong learner because things that you learn in vet school are going to be outdated probably by the time you graduate. And so how do you continue to grow into the profession and get access to that knowledge and then be able to distill that into something that can be a diagnostic and treatment plan for your patients? I think AI is going to do the same thing. If you look at what AI can do for, you know, interpreting radiographs, psychology, I think all of that's going to change. And there's one camp that is probably always going to try to fight it. But that's useless or pointless. I think better to embrace it and say, OK, what are the good things that can come out of this and how can this make the profession even better? And then I think, finally, the role of the veterinarian has changed and that there's so much more that we do, you know, whether it's one health applications that we've seen come out of, you know, some of the zoonotic diseases in the past decade. It allows you to think so far beyond what we used to in terms of what your career can be. And even better than that, you can reinvent yourself multiple times in your career. And that's what's fun about the veterinary profession. You're not, you know, stuck in one particular aspect of the profession. If you do that for five years and decide that's not for you or you're not interested in it anymore, there's something else you can do. And that's, I think that's something that we need to train students to be open -minded, to make sure that they're taking advantage of their vet school curriculum and training to learn all those different possibilities and to set themselves up for success in a career that can be very fluid.

Dr. Venable: Yeah, you hear about that, right? Sometimes you get the mindset, especially in school of like, I want to be, you know, a small animal or a mixed animal vet or whatever it may be. I know that's kind of how I felt going in. And then you learn all this different stuff. But I think you're right too about, you know, you can change things up, you know, certainly something that it sounds like that you did quite a bit, like getting involved with the one health. And, you know, that's something that I've always found fascinating about oncology is how we can help people. And how would you say that journey's gone? And what are some rewarding stories you would say from the one health side of things?

Dr. Henry: Well, and I think we look at one health as on college is very different than a lot of people do. You know, one health to many people refers to infectious diseases and things like that. We kind of look at the good part of one health. And that is, is, you know, what therapeutic interventions can work both in humans and animals, how can we inform those decisions across disciplines, and also the epidemiology. You know, what can we learn from animals in terms of environmental exposures that may be health risks for people? So, you know, all of that I think is really interesting to me from a one health aspect. And I think it's probably that epidemiology part of it that I found most interesting in terms of how oncology relates to one health. I remember when I moved from Alabama, where I was doing my residency up to the state of Washington, and saw such a huge difference in the amount of thyroid cancer in dogs that I was seeing. And it was just very curious to me why that occurred. And so I started investigating it, and I looked at causes of thyroid cancer, and they have been related to volcanic ash and volcano eruptions. Well, it turns out that Mount St. Helens had blown about a decade before I got up to Washington. And so if you look at the plume from that, you know, did that have an effect on dogs that were in that area? And would that ultimately bear out in the human population? Same thing in bladder cancer and some of these others, you know, perhaps lymphomas, when we start seeing a concentration of particular types of cancer in animals in a region, and not necessarily animals that are related, that's a red flag for me that we need to be be figuring out, is there some environmental reason for that? And if so, could we see that down the road at people given the different lifespan of dogs and people? 

Dr. Venable: And I agree. I think that's really fascinating in trying to put those pieces together. I love how you did get that mystery together, right, with the volcanoes and the thyroid cancer. That's really, really creative.

Dr. Henry: It's funny because I did that back, you know, in the 90s where we didn't, internet wasn't even a thing then. And so I have had a map that I got a plume map of Mount St. Helens. And I overlaid that on the area where I was getting the diagnoses. And unfortunately, that same area was downwind from a nuclear reactor. And so I couldn't really separate the two. So I didn't ever get the final answer on that nor get it published, but the process of looking at it was interesting again, you know, solving those mysteries or trying to solve those mysteries. Right. Yeah. I know that's, that's really interesting. You know, earlier you were talking about just the boom in technology and AI and, you know, is that, do you think one of the more challenges facing our profession right now and just veterinary education or would you say it's something else?

Dr. Henry: Oh my gosh, so many challenges. You know, I would say the big one right now and it's even controversial is the workforce and is there a shortage? And there, there's a different set of opinions on that. Some say no, there's not a shortage. It's just we're not efficient and we need to look at how we can improve that. Others say no, there's a shortage and we need to open up more vet schools and we need to increase class sizes. And I think reality lies somewhere in between those two opinions. I think certainly I believe there are shortages. shortages. I think if you ask any dean of a vet school right now, they believe there are shortages and that's one of the things they hear from their alumni is why can't I find veterinarians to hire. However, I think there are shortages in areas and we need to be very strategic in how we address that problem. So just opening up more vet schools isn't necessarily going to solve that. If none of those students want to go into rural practice where we have certainly shortages. So I think that is going to be one of our biggest challenges. How do we face that? How do we come together as a profession and say we need to specifically train students that are going to at least initially go into this area. They may change their mind down the road, but how do we solve that problem right there? And then what does that education look like? We've got schools that are traditional models where you go to the same place all four years. You may go out for externships or preceptorships, but you can get your entire education in one site versus those that are strictly distributive model where you do two years there and then you go somewhere else for your clinical. And then we've got hybrids of that. And how do we have some quality control across all those different models? And how do we make sure that our graduates are ready when they hit the ground to be running in a way that doesn't necessarily apply to human medicine where you're going to go on and do many years of additional training? Yeah, we've got more challenges than I could talk about in an hour. Right. Those are all some really good points. And I definitely hear differences. Even where I am down in Arizona, it seems like there's a shortage of bets. People will tell me how long they have to wait to get in, but then there's other places, you know, I talked to people, you know, where they say like, no, we can get them in right away. So sometimes it does make you wonder, it's like, is the pet owner exaggerating? Is the vet maybe thinking they can get them in sooner than they can? Like, I don't really know if anyone, and maybe you know this, is anyone doing like surveys or any way to try to better answer that question? 

Dr. Henry: Yeah, and you know, the AVMA is working on this, the AVMC is looking at the problem. And the other issue, it's not just a pure number of veterinarians, it's what is a veterinarian's work week going to look like in the future. And I think it's going to look very different. I think quality of life is very important to folks now. They don't want to have a 24/7 career. They want to go home, they want to spend time with their kids, they want to go to soccer games on the weekend, they want to have an outside life. And so if you look at full time equivalents, that's probably a better way to look at it in terms of, you know, what shortages are going to exist, if we consider what a normal practice is going to look like. And then we need to evolve to give access to care to more people. You know, we need hours that fit people's schedule. We need, you know, emergency clinics that are open and don't have an eight hour wait time for them. Maybe we need urgent care facilities. I'm not saying that, you know, we definitely need to mirror everything in human medicine because I don't think they've got it figured out either, but we have to evolve. I totally agree.

Dr. Venable: And I actually do quite a bit in telemedicine. You know, I do a lot of teleconsulting and I'm really trying to increase access to care. And of course, I'm specifically oncology, you know, because there's not enough oncologists, certainly for all the pets that get cancer and even the people that, you know, want that information or need it. There's big dead zones, you know, where there's no oncologists or other pockets where there's oncologists, but there's really long long waits. What's your thoughts? I find the whole tele -health, there's a lot of opinions, sometimes rather heated opinions. What do you think as far as that in the future of veterinary medicine? What do you think about telehealth?

Dr. Henry: It's another one of those topics that creates a lot of angst. And I think the tendency is either embrace it or just walk away from it. And I don't think either one of those is the right answer. I think we need to look at what problem are we trying to solve or problems are we trying to solve, and what are we afraid of? And then let's be strategic about how we address both of those. I think the problem, if it's access to care, is one that tele -medicine can help quite a bit with. I think the fear is you're gonna not have that veterinary client -patient relationship, and so you may have misdiagnoses. It may be used inappropriately,

 and certainly that does occur on the human side as well. So the trick is, every state has a different practice act. And so, you know, we've got 50 different ways of doing things, and each individual state has to open up their practice act and adjust it for how this is gonna come into play. And so I think we need to come together as a profession and say, okay, even though there's 50 different practice acts across the board, this is how this should be addressed. And then each of us need to be working with our state legislators to educate them about the concerns and the benefits of it. You know, I've used telehealth when I've been traveling. You know, if it's something relatively simple that's not going to... That I don't have to worry about a misdiagnosis having bad consequences, then I think that's the place to use it. And your example of an oncology, that gives you access to specialists that otherwise you wouldn't have. And so certainly, if it's not there, it's going to be detrimental. 

Dr. Venable: Yeah, I think you hit a lot of the points in the practice acts. That's definitely something that I've been trying to read through all the different states. It's a bit of a minefield. So I like the idea of everyone trying to come together and make a decision. I think that makes a lot of sense. 

Dr. Henry: Well, and I think working with the legislators is so important. And we can say what we want is a profession of how we want it to go. But if the legislature passes something that we don't agree with, we still have to abide by it. So it would behoove us to have those working conversations. 

Dr. Venable: Yeah, I know that makes sense. And I think that we're already seeing that a little bit, right? Where lobbyists are coming to the legislative and changing things that maybe the veterinary society wasn't as much in favor for. So yeah, I think you're totally right in reaching out. And, you know, just since I feel like I'm kind of hitting you with all these big topic questions, like it says you're the dean, just ask you another one. I just read an AVMA. I just got my magazine there. What do you think about the mid -level practitioner? I feel like, again, that's another topic that people are kind of heated on. And, you know, I've heard, you know, certainly when they were doing the, the presidential elect, you know, they were different candidates were talking about that. And I think maybe even Colorado might have a program. I'm not 100% on that where they were looking into a program. But what's your thought on that?

Dr. Henry: Yeah, that's a really hot issue right now. So, you know, the two things that are kind of at the forefront of that, the state of Arkansas through their legislature basically opened the door for a mid -level practitioner. And so that has caused some angst, again, related to that veterinary client -patient relationship. And then Colorado State is working on putting together a program. They don't, it's not in place, but they have put forth a proposal and that's been met with some opposition within the vet tech community and the veterinary community. And it gets back to that, okay, then what are we afraid of and how do we keep that from happening? And I think the key there is to make sure that the level of supervision that is needed is understood and enforced and that we're carefully looking at what are those skills that a mid -level practitioner, and I don't even like that terminology. I've been, you know, part of a consulting group that's looking at it more as a professional assistant, like a PA in human medicine.

But are there things that they could do that maybe is at a different level than a technician, but that isn't going to undermine everything that the technicians have been trying to establish in terms of their worth to a practice and is not gonna have the wrong financial impact on technicians, but will create a career ladder for a progression from, say, an assistant to a technician to a VPA. And what are those things that they could do that would free the veterinarian up to do some of those higher level procedures or have that communication that they can't have right now because of time constraints? So, you know, I think where people get very nervous is, are you going to give someone the ability to prescribe medications and make a diagnosis out in a field that could be a wrong diagnosis and they could have poor consequences. If you keep it under the supervision of a veterinarian, where the veterinarian has to have that relationship with that patient and with that client, and then can supervise it, then I can see with some real benefits of it. But again, it's, it's, there are two camps and the two camps aren't coming together on this. And we just need to be open minded on both sides of the issue and have open conversations about how can we look at this problem and ultimately benefit the profession and benefit those that are trying to get access to veterinary care.

Dr. Venable: Yeah, no, I think, I think you hit a lot of important points with all this and thanks for educating us on some of the big hot topics right now that you certainly have more detail on so that was awesome thank you so much for that and then to kind of circle it back to oncology. What are some things that are coming out that you're excited about and what are you some things that you think is a profession maybe we should be not hesitant but maybe, you know, like you said kind of think about what are we afraid of before moving forward type scenario.

Dr. Henry: Well, certainly, you know, there's so many things coming on in terms of early diagnosis and that that excites me more than anything I, you know, I've done years of research looking at ways to detect bladder cancer earlier ways to detect lymphoma earlier and ways to predict what treatments are going to be best for each patient so in that regard I'm very excited about what we can do I think we need to make sure that the research is behind those, and that, you know, there's money to be made, and there is more money to be made if you have shortcuts sometimes. And I think we we need to avoid that we need to make sure that the research, solid research goes goes into that. And then I think making that accessible to our clients is a bit different than human clients, or human patients. Because a lot of these more precision type therapies can be quite expensive. And so how do we harness the power of that in a way that's going to be practical for veterinary patients? The other thing I think about is the ability to stage correctly. And with the imaging that we have today, you know, we were wrong a lot with previous imaging. And even going back to the most well designed clinical trials of their time. If we were relying on chest radiographs and physical exam, and, you know, maybe limb radiographs and osteosarcoma to determine whether a patient was in remission or not, we were going to be wrong a lot, you know, and now that we have the nuclear medicine capabilities, and they're becoming more accessible, and CTs are more accessible, I think we can do so much better job of staging the patient and then making great decisions about, you know, informed decisions about how to go forward. And then finally, we've got an opportunity in veterinary medicine to do way more with cancer prevention than I think they'll ever be able to do in human medicine. As we learn more about genetics, breed predispositions, we can have smart breeding and make sure that those lines that are prone to certain cancers are improved through the information of those genetics. And we can control things better like environments and exposures and diet. And that's not going to happen anytime soon in human medicine, if ever. 

Dr. Venable: Right, right, especially the diet, right? I feel like in people, it's so hard, but dogs and cats and things, it's a little bit easier, but a lot of people, kibble is pretty easy or some kind of can't, you know, like, versus like when I have owners that are starting to do those home cooked diets, it's just so, so much work. I feel like a lot of them, I wouldn't keep up with it. So yeah, I think you're right. Like, what can we do with diet and breeding? Yeah, that is all really interesting. And one other point I certainly don't want to miss is, you know, you in your career has gone up and done so much leadership, you know, first woman Dean at the University of Missouri. You know, what advice do you have for just, you know, just the diversity in leadership, you know, for the up and coming vets or even people that are here may be interested in leadership? Like, what tips do you have for people?

Dr. Henry: Well, and when you say diversity, that could mean a lot of things. I think we need diversity of thought in our academic institutions. And for many years, we've been sort of an echo chamber of agreement. And so bringing different perspectives in is super important, whether that's, you know, gender, whether that's race, whether that's, you know, life experience. I think that's always going to be very healthy, not just for academic institutions, but for the profession as a whole. And I think it's getting easier. I think there's less stigma around many things today. And I think that entryway into leadership has been opened up quite a bit. I guess my advice in leadership is you've got to go into it for the right reasons. And if the reason you want to go into leadership is because you want the prestige or you want the access, that's the wrong reason. And I think you've got to go into it with a servant leadership mentality where you are putting yourself in a role to help those that you represent and to advocate those that you represent, advocate for them. And if that's where your heart is and that's the reason you're pursuing it, you're not going to go wrong. You know, the easy advice is do the right thing in all situations. And if you can go to bed at night knowing you did the right thing, then you're where you should be. 

Dr. Venable: Oh, that's great. I feel like there's so many good things from that. I love the diversity of thought, you know? Sometimes I feel like people get so caught up in diversity, but if everybody's just saying, yes, you're right, what difference does it make? You need like people need, you know, coming in different experiences, different, everything just different thought. I think that's perfect and so telling. I mean, I love the servant leadership, you know? I think that is such a big thing because you're right. If you want the prestige, which that's sometimes unfortunately, what attracts people in the beginning, but I can see where that it's just not going to last. It's not going to be healthy. Maybe not the leader you want to follow, right? If that's the whole goal. 

Dr. Henry: And it's leadership is hard. I mean, it's hard. It's lonely. It's, you know, it just going from, you know, being a clinical oncologist to being a dean, you feel like you're the same person, but everybody all sees you differently. And so, you know, I think it's being able to put yourself in those positions, but also to be vulnerable enough to say, you know, I need help with this, right? I need advice on this particular topic because I don't have the background to know what you know about it. 

Dr. Venable: Right. Now I hadn't even thought of that, but that's probably true. It's lonely, it's different, right? Than it was. So that's a good point that probably I hadn't thought of before. So definitely, definitely a good point to make and interesting to think of that. But well, Dr. Henry, I thank you so much for being on this podcast. I know for me personally, you were a huge reason how I got into oncology. I, you know, followed everything. And also, you know, you mentioned quality life earlier on this podcast, and that was one thing as a vet student. I do remember you always said cancer didn't happen on the weekends, and that was something that really resonated with me. I was like, oh, I do kind of like that. The surgeons are here all the time, so anyway. 

Dr. Henry: I thought dermatology didn't happen on the weekends. (laughing) - Right?

Dr. Venable: Right, that was a great phrase that really fit with me as a vet student for sure. It just, yeah, all the one health, everything you guys did there at Mizzou was certainly instrumental for me. And I know you're affecting so many people long since then and beyond. So again, just thank you so much for being on this podcast. And before we go, do you have any recommendations of other people you think that would be great for this show?

Dr. Henry: Well, you know, I was listening to Betsy Hershey on a podcast, and she mentioned Mary Kay Klein multiple times, and that's somebody I had thought about even before listening to hers, but just in the fact that she's taken a different path than I have, certainly in terms of specialty practice. She understands the med -onk and the rad -onk side of things, but also has been involved in the vet school at Arizona. And so I think has a cool perspective, both from an academic setting and from a private practice and specialty setting. And she's a neat person who's a female leader in our profession. 

Dr. Venable: Right, yeah, and Mary Kay Klein, that's a great person, thank you so much. Well, yeah, she certainly is definitely another pioneer. So that's great, thank you very much. Well, again, thank you, Dr. Henry. I really honored, really appreciate you being on. And I know a lot of our listeners can take so many nuggets away from everything you said.

Dr. Henry: Well, it's been a pleasure to be on this podcast and certainly an honor to be in this profession. 

Dr. Venable: Well, that's it for this episode of the Veterinary Cancer Pioneers Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode and gained valuable insight, we would be so grateful if you could mention our podcast to your friends and colleagues. The Veterinary Cancer Pioneers Podcast is presented to you by ImpriMed.